My concerns begin with, “How do we define “Holy Spirit/Ghost empowered living?” And, “How deeply if any, are we divided over spiritual issues?” Are we (PCG) seeing the next generation experiencing true fullness of the Holy Spirit? I am deeply troubled over our youth having a real deep encounter with the Holy Spirit.
Some of my questions are:
- What is producing fruit and what is not producing fruit?
- What trends/fads are affecting the next generation as they relate to the Holy Spirit?
- How do we engage in the process for the next generation to experience the Holy Spirit? (I agree Jesus first - I know salvation is the main thing - but on this topic how?)
- If we were at our best what would we be doing now?
- How do we lead the next generation to embrace Holy Spirit empowered living for maximum evangelistic harvest?
C Scott
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Wow, Bishop. You are asking a plethora of questions and it almost feels like we are drinking the same coffee (venti iced coffee w/3 pumps caramel and 1/2 inch breve?). I have been asking these questions myself recently and I believe they desperately need to be answered. For the sake of time and space and multiple discussions I will briefly comment.
ReplyDeleteI see many in the up and coming generation who have been turned off by emotional excess and lack of fruit when it comes to Holy Spirit experience. I see youth who have witnessed the manefestation of the gifts without the manefestation of fruit and scratched their head trying to reconcile the disparity. Misuse of the gifts, I believe, is another turn off.
It seems to me also that non-Pentecostal churches are just as effective, if not more so, in evangelism than Pentecostals. The question then becomes "If Spirit-empowerment is truly the difference maker, where are the results?"
Some have argued (especially this year with the Lakeland "revival") that what we need are more signs, wonders and miracles to prove that Christ is supreme. The problem there, as demonstrated by another evangelist scandel, is that if there is no character fruit produced by Holy Spirit, the signs and wonders become shallow. Lakeland barely made a splash on secular news until the evangelist fell into sin. What does this say to us and portray to the world?
Character always supercedes anointing. David recognized Saul as anointed, but the first monarch of Israel was rejected by God for his lack of character. To truly demonstrate to our youth what it means to be Spirit-empowered, I believe we have to start with character (fruit) and then allow the gifts, signs and wonders to follow. If we demonstrate it as a forerunner generation, perhaps they will not be as skeptical when the manefestations do come.
Also, three words: Explain, explain, explain. Our church (which has a core value of being Holy Spirit-friendly) has lost countless people because we have failed to scripturally explain manfestations as they occur in corporate worship. We cannot assume that every person in the pew is at Christianity 401 when many are still at Christianity 101. Sound teaching that fruit is foremost and the Spirit gives gifts AS HE WILLS would also go a long way. The next generation is smart. They want reality and we have to demonstrate through our lives that living in the Spirit is more than talking in tongues and doing funky chicken dances. It has to affect us from the inside out.
That wasn't as brief asa I had hoped, but hopefully we can jump start a good thread here.
Jon, the key word that seems to keep coming up in the discussions I am part of and what I have been sensing in my spirit is simply "integrity." The integrity of the experience is more integral to the success (fruit) than the experience. I believe the key here is simple (my spiritual gift is to over-simplify) but it is the cross. The work of the Holy Spirit is not to produce tongues (yes this is a real manifestation) or as Jon says "funky chicken dances;" the work of the Holy Spirit is to produce a crucified life. Galatians 2:20 Has the Pentecostal movement missed something in moving so quickly from Calvary to the Upper room? (I know that there is debate if the Day of Pentecost actually occured in the 'upper room.') The Holy Spirit's work through the cross is not totally finished at salvation, we all agree but where is the emphasis on living Galatians 2:20? Am I missing it? Jesus is absolutely clear that the work of the Holy Spirit is to bring glory to Jesus not signs, wonders, etc. John 15:26 This is where I am really hung up: If we (Pentecostals) have the power of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 1:8, where are the evangelistic results? I know that the argument will be made that those in the evangelitical world that claim many converts are only counting noses and many of these are not real converts. But that can be said of any effort from vacation Bible school to youth camp to revivals, etc.
ReplyDeleteYou struck a real chord with me, "the next gen is smart." AMEN! We cannot dumb down, water down or speak down to this generation - let's give them truth (explain, explain, explain) and when they get that truth (Word of God Rhema) it will become alive (Logos) in their lives.
Re "explain, explain, explain"...
ReplyDeleteEver watch one of Karen Wheaton's programs on The Ramp? The youth in that place kinda remind me of youth camps I attended when I was younger -- where the alter area and much of the pews were filled with crying teens (and shouting teens and dancing teens and slain teens).
The Ramp attenders seem to be on fire, extremely so. Many folks would say they've gone overboard.
How did it happen? Karen Wheaton explained that when she started with just a small group in her home, she determined to teach the kids everything she knew about the Holy Ghost.
Ken, I attended those kind of camps and want those kind of camps to continue. However, as I look at old camp photos, a majority of the teens who cried, shouted, danced and got slain are no longer in church today. This morning I ran into one of those slain, drunk in the spirit teens at my Credit Union and he said he was no longer in church but knew he needed to be.
ReplyDeleteI don't blame the camps or the DYD's/PYPA Presidents for this happening, but failure to explain (teach/disciple) to the youth the biblical principles about the Holy Spirit and His work have led to them leaving their experiences at camp and not living (as Bishop mentioned) a crucified life. I applaud Karen Wheaton for taking the time and energy to explain. This gives substance to the experience.
Paul said he was in labor as a woman with child "until CHRIST is formed in us." Sprirtual formation is the key, in my opinion. Thanks for sharing that about Karen.
I, too, have seen many former campers who no longer attend church. I wonder what makes the difference between those who leave and those who go on to become church leaders?
ReplyDeleteI've had the pleasure of knowing Dora Thomas, the widow of A.W. Thomas, one of our former Asst. General Superintendents who was instrumental in developing Charlie Mosier.
Some of the stories she's told of past manifestations are more intense than anything I've ever seen -- including at least two manifestations of the Spirit in a rushing wind form.
It seems to me there was something about that generation that's missing today, including:
1) Tarrying in prayer. They wouldn't leave service until the Holy Ghost had moved -- even if it meant going `til midnight. As long as Sister Thomas has been able, she has knealt in prayer for 3 to 4 hours every afternoon.
2) Camaraderie [spirit of good, friendly fellowship]. Remember Jack Skirvin talking at last convention about his introduction to the PCG? Someone had invited him to a fellowship meeting, introduced him to the superintendent, and encouraged him to join the PCG where he was accepted and giving a place for ministry.
3) Authority. Many leaders of that generation had a my-way-or-the-highway mentality. On the downside, they were sometimes harsh on upcoming ministers. But, on the other side, perhaps part of today's problem is that we are far too lax.
4) Standards. It wasn't too long ago that most of our folks felt that watching movies at the theater was sinful -- even it was a Christian movie. Nowadays, it seems that almost anything goes. I wonder how many of our constituents have seen Titanic, Shindler's List, or Forrest Gump in spite of the nudity contained therein? I confess that I enjoy watching movies [and I regret to say I've seen the three movies I listed]. I wonder, what cost did I pay? Has it cost anointing? Has it allowed demonic inroads to my thought life? Christ said in John 14:30, "the prince of this world... hath nothing in me." I don't think I can say the same, as I often have to bring my thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
Wow gentlemen, talk about timing. My church is living this out right now and it is challenging me to the core. There is so much to say but cannot possibly on this blog. First let me say I appreciate all the comments and your heart on this matter Bishop. Since pastoring my church almost 8 years ago my thoughts about the Holy Spirit have not changed but how we as a church should respond has in many ways. Jon you said non-pentecostal church's seem to be better in evangelism than pentecostals and I believe overall you are right. I think a big part of that is the "Smartness" of this generation who wants an explanation for what they see and hear but nobody can give them one other than "that's what we did back then" & hey it feels good huh?. However we just keep on having "Holy Ghost" services with our 50 or so and the rest of the world goes to hell or get's saved and grows up in other "not so weird" churches. I have found people shy away from what they do not understand. If we don't explain it, why should they buy it? In my studies (as limited as they are to me) I read several things that Jesus said concerning the Holy Spirit (sorry, no scripture ref's right now, it's late). Jesus said...
ReplyDelete1) He will lead and guide you into all truth
John 16:12-13 (MSG)
12 "I still have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them now.
13 But when the Friend comes, the Spirit of the Truth, he will take you by the hand and guide you into all the truth there is. He won't draw attention to himself, but will make sense out of what is about to happen and, indeed, out of all that I have done and said.
2) He will bring back to your rememberence everything I have taught you
3) He will testify of me
It seems we focus so much on the feeling of the Spirit that we neglect the fulfilling of the Spirit. Am I off base here?
A question from my Sunday School lesson has been on my mind all day long.
ReplyDeleteIn a discussion of 1 Corinthians 2:4 (neither my word nor my preaching was with persuasive words of human wisdom, but with demonstration of the Spirit and power), the author asked, "How are Christians able to present the gospel to others with demonstration of Spirit and power?" This led to a discussion of what distinguishes preaching "in demonstration of spirit and power" from ordinary preaching.
In my 20+ years in Pentecostal churches, I've often heard this verse quoted, but I've never heard anyone ask or tell exactly how one goes about preaching in demonstration of the Spirit and power.
In my observation, many churches seem to do quite well using nothing more than the word of God coupled with persuasive speaking techniques.
And here we are, allegedly endued with power and anointing, but having results that say otherwise.
Back to the "explain, explain, explain"...
How often do we see explanations in scripture regarding manifestations of the Holy Ghost?
The few explanations I can think of arose more from "How'd they do that?" questions than from "What's wrong with these people?"
Even on Pentecost, the one single time when the disciples were thought to be drunken, the crowd was amazed and marvelled about how it was possible that they heard every man speak in their own tongue.
I think part of our problem is that we need more "How'd they do that?" manifestations and fewer of the "What's wrong with these people?" sort.
I'm talking about the same stuff Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 14 where he said if everyone talks in tongues, the unbelievers will think you're nuts, but if everyone prophesies, the secrets of the unbeliever's heart will be made manifest and, falling on his face, he will worship God and report that God truly is in you.
1 Corinthians 14:1 resonates in me -- Follow love and procure spiritual gifts, but above all that you prophesy.
By the way, I got that word "procure" from my Spanish Bible which says "procurad los dones espirituales". Procuring something is a whole different thing from desiring something.
I love where this blog is going. It seems we are beginning to express some deep-seeded feelings about this great topic.
ReplyDelete"How are Christians able to present the gospel to others with demonstration of Spirit and power?" Great question, Ken.
It's interesting that the word "demonstration" is only used this one time in the NT. In context he was writing to a church that had an intense political spirit and loved to name drop when it came to their favorite Apostle. I see part of his point as being "Hey, it's not me or my words that did it - God did it through me."
One of my language tools says of this word demonstrate that it is "a proof, a "showing" forth or display, by the operation of the Spirit of God in him, as affecting the hearts and lives of his hearers, in contrast to the attempted methods of proof by rhetorical arts and philosophic arguments."
I find it fascinating that Paul moved in demonstration with the Corinthians and in total contrast, used philosophical reason to reach the Athens crowd in Acts 17. I submit to this discussion that Paul being filled with the Spirit enabled him to discern the culture and spiritual atmosphere of those he was trying to reach. In this day we must be so full of the Spirit that we have this same divine ability. We can demonstrate when the situation calls for it, or by contrast be able to explain, explain explain when necessary. Some would call it knowing your audience and having enough of the Spirit within to know what to do. Talk about maximum evagelistic harvest! Our problem is, we may not be at a point where we can do either. God help us get to this point.